Curse

NuclearDope · Jul 22, 2008, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Where is your source for the "Spirit of the Forest" being Urgoz?

It is stated at the Amatz Basin description that Urgoz is a corrupted forest spirit, however yes i agree we don't have a source that says he is the forest spirit.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 22, 2008, 05:35 PM // 17:35

It says a forest spirit, not the spirit of the forest which is what I was pointing out. They are two different things, mainly differentiated by "a" and "the." How I view it, is that there are "representations" of the Spirit of the Forest, and there is the actual Spirit of the Forest, which is basically the whole forest, or at least the life of it. Urgoz would be a representation of the Spirit of the Forest, not the actual spirit.

Gmr Leon · Jul 22, 2008, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

I dispute your claim that the Jade Wind was a purely human-caused event: we know Abaddon at least was stirring the pot. We'll probably never know if the power of the Jade Wind came purely from human sources, purely from Abaddon's power, or something in between, but while plenty of other races blame humanity alone (naga and the wardens, for instance), it's not clear that that is actually the case.

The explanation Azazel gave for the cause of the Jade Wind is generally what I go off of. Emperor Angsiyan was to be blessed with powers from the Five Gods and distribute it among the people of Cantha to help them out. However, Shiro, through undergoing dark rituals before the Harvest Ceremony, was able to absorb this power after killing him. Yet instead of distributing it in small bits and pieces to the people he was killed and released it all at once, creating the Jade Wind.

Sometimes I think that Abaddon managed to slip through some of his power into the blessing or that Angsiyan was replaced by a demon imbued with the power Shiro needed to absorb under his control.

But that's a topic for another thread.

NuclearDope · Jul 22, 2008, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

It says a forest spirit, not the spirit of the forest which is what I was pointing out.

I just said almost word for word what you were pointing out, I was merely commenting on some of your wording sounding like you denied he was a Forest Spirit at all.

BrettM · Aug 27, 2008, 03:50 PM // 15:50

I can't agree that the Druids of the Maguuma Jungle are the tribe that is referenced in the Melandru scripture. The Wardens seem much more likely candidates to me.

The druid structures in Maguuma appear to have been abandoned fairly recently, while the scripture was written more than a thousand years previously and may be referring to an event that predated the writing by hundreds of years. See, for example, this description of Denravi:

Quote:

The Henge of Denravi was once a sacred meeting place for the druids of Maguuma. It fell into disuse after the druids mysteriously disappeared more than a decade ago. The only way to enter the Henge is to be granted access through the Henge Gate, and only those who have already been to Denravi can find their way back.

It makes sense that the druids would give up their physical dwellings and "disappear" at the time they ascended from forms of flesh into spirits, and the Denravi description suggests that this change was quite recent. The scripture says nothing about Ewan's tribe becoming non-fleshly, and the structures in Maguuma are clearly not designed for creatures of Oakheart-type form, indicating that the druids were human or humanoid prior to their transformation.

I believe that the druids were probably humans who voluntarily worshipped Melandru and studied nature for generations until they learned how to become truly one with it. What motive would they have had to transform themselves a decade ago if Melandru had changed them more then a millenium ago?

As for the Wardens, their horns may be branch-like enough to correspond to the scriptural description of the fate of Ewan's tribe, and they have apparently been guarding the forest for the requisite length of time. They also seem to have no need of dwellings, as one might expect of people who had been turned into plants.

If the scriptures are not referring to creatures we have yet to meet, then I think the Wardens are a better fit to the scriptural story than the Druids of Maguuma.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 27, 2008, 10:51 PM // 22:51

BrettM, I would like to point out, that the Druids have been around, and are still around, ever since at least the scriptures of Melandru. They were alive back then, but did not disappear back then. They only recently disappeared *and are seen in ghostly forms now*.

In fact, everything you state supports Ewan's tribe being the Druids of the Maguuma Jungle. They were once human turned into fleshy Oakheart-like forms, nothing tells of that tribe becoming spirits because it would have happened after the Scriptures were written, and there would be no need to write it down themselves, and very few people visit the Maguuma.

With the Druid's transformation possibly being recent, and Denravi's description of more then a decade ago *which could mean even 100 years, or 1000 years ago* also supports my claim with the Druids. You seem to think it was just a decade ago they went into spiritual beings, which is incorrect, it had to be at least 11 years ago, but was probably more.

The two biggest hole in the idea of the Wardens being Ewans tribe are:
1. There is no known Ewan in the Wardens, even though most of their leaders are named *Druid leaders are only known as "Elder Druid" nothing more*. Also, the Wardens were most likely priests, their origin is actually unknown. If the Wardens were Ewan and his bandits, then the Warden's origins would be known. This is probably the biggest point that support the Druids being Ewan and his bandits.

2. According to the manual, timeline, and scriptures, the dates do not match.

Wardens have been in the Echovald Forest longer then other people have who would have recorded their history. Which means, they have been there for since around between 786 BE (humans appear on the coasts of Cantha) and 459 BE (Kurzicks become Vassals). I reach this

Now the Scriptures are dated 48 BE. The scritpures passages were most likely written within a few years, at most within a human's lifespan, to get the details more accurate, especially since Melandru's *and the other gods* followers would want to appease their goddess.

Last, and least relavent, point I would like to make, which seems to be forgotten by many, is that the scriptures, excluding Kormir's and Abaddon's, were made in prophecies. Although it is possible ANet made the Wardens to fit the scriptures, I find it more likely that they would have meant for the Druids to be part of Edwan's bandits.

Free Runner · Aug 28, 2008, 01:30 AM // 01:30

The problem i have with Ewans tribe being the druids is the dates and descriptions.

Quote:

And as She saith, so was it done. From their limbs sprouted branches, and the blood in their veins was the sap of trees. Then was Ewan and his tribe converted, and became they stewards of nature.

Scriptures of Melandru: 48 BE

Its sounds like they were "transformed". That was in 48 BE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aurora Glade

A long time ago, a tribe of human druids ventured into the jungle to make peace with the jungle. For many years they lived in harmony with the Maguuma, making their home in the Aurora Glade. Though there are rumors, no one has actually seen or heard from any of the druids in over a hundred years

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henge of Denravi

The Henge of Denravi was once a sacred meeting place for the druids of the Maguuma Jungle. It fell into disuse after the druids mysteriously disappeared more than a decade ago. The only way to enter the Henge is to be granted access through the Henge Gate, and only those who have already been to Denravi can find their way back.

The Druids were a "tribe of humans" who ventured into the Jungle to make peace with it. They, as of 1072 AE had not been seen in over a hundred years. Henge says "more than a decade ago". Also note that it says they were humans when they entered the Jungle - not fleshy oakheart-like things (?) - they were just humans.

So they had dissappeared around/by 972 AE (Rough estimate considering it says "over a hundred years". It doesnt say over two hundred years or three hundred years. It just says "a hundred years"). It says they lived in the Magumma for many years as humans(i would take that to be perhaps 20 or 30 years perhaps less)

But then the Scriptures say it was in/around 48 BE when Ewans tribe encountered Melandru and were changed into something treelike. So for Ewans Tribe to be the Druids they would have to live quite a few years, change back into humans, live in the Magumma for a few years and then dissapear - becoming the Spirits of Nature.

Oh and as Humans, Ewans Tribe destroyed Nature. The druids as Humans went into the Magumma to be at peace with Nature. So i'm not seeing the connection here.

BrettM · Aug 28, 2008, 07:03 PM // 19:03

"The Roman Empire fell more than a decade ago." That may be factually correct, but it sounds pretty silly when referring to something that happened more than 1,000 years ago. In fact, it sounds like a joke, and would still sound like a joke if you said "century" instead of "decade". It is much more likely that someone using such a phrase is referring to a time span on the closer order of a decade -- say somewhere between 10 and 20 years -- than to a time span 10 or 100 times greater.

Nice spotting on the Aurora Glade quote, Free Runner. That really seems to clinch it, though I am a bit bothered by the discrepancy between the two quotes. Perhaps there was a typo in the Henge quote and it should have read "century" instead of "decade", or perhaps the typo was in the Aurora quote and it should have been "10" instead of "100". (I would prefer 10 years, given the remarkable preservation of the structures. Jungles tend to reclaim such things in very short order.)

The scriptures are dated 48 BE, but the events could have taken place long before and been passed down as oral tradition. Think about the Icelandic sagas or the epic Greek poems, which were passed down for many generations with reasonable accuracy before they were ever committed to writing. However, the date of the scriptures certainly places an upper limit on the time of the events, since they could not have happened *after* the writing.

I'm in complete agreement with Free Runner that the connection between Ewan and the Druids is not evident, and that the human-to-spirit change of the Druids must have been well after the scripture was written. Even their arrival in Maguuma likely took place after the scripture was written. Druids are a nature-worshipping religious class, which certainly doesn't describe Ewan's tribe. It also seems unlikely that the goal of Melandru's flesh transformation was to turn them into nature priests and send them out to build henges, develop religious ceremonies, and seek an additional transformation. Nothing in the scripture suggests that to me at all.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 28, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Well, it is possible that Ewan's tribe is not the Druids in the Maguuma Jungle. But I still find it highly unlikely that Ewan's tribe are the Wardens. Like I said, the Warden's leaders have names and none are Ewan, even the idea of Urgoz clashes with that. Not to mention that it seems that the Wardens became what they are now Voluntarily *aside from the Jade Wind's affect*

So, I would have to, now, think Ewan's tribe is one of two things:

1. The random Oakhearts/plant-creatures that we fight all over Kryta *which are primarily along the boarder of the Maguuma* and those in the Maguuma. In other words, the hostile protectors. (Yes, the Wardens are hostile, but they were only hostile to those who threatened the forest prior to the Jade Wind)

2. Some unknown race of plants-beings that we have yet to meet. *No one said that Ewan was Tyrian, Canthan, or Elonian*

Gmr Leon · Aug 28, 2008, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

2. Some unknown race of plants-beings that we have yet to meet. *No one said that Ewan was Tyrian, Canthan, or Elonian*

For the time being, this seems the best course of action. We could speculate all day that this and that or that and this are the descendants of Ewan's tribe. It wouldn't get us any closer to a factual answer.

Determining Ewan's tribe and its descendants is practically impossible to do through observation and there's not enough lore fleshing out existing creatures to make a connection possible.

BrettM · Aug 29, 2008, 04:16 PM // 16:16

It does look like option 2 is our best choice at the moment.

However, I do find option 1 appealing. For one thing, the oakheartish creatures are named as "jungle guardians" during the bonus of Bloodstone Fen. They don't appear to be under the control of the Druids, since the Druids could have simply instructed them to leave us alone in that case. So who appointed them as guardians if not Melandru herself?

All of the variants of these creatures - Oakhearts, Ancient Oaks, Pinesols, etc. -- have a form similar to that of the Avatar of Melandru, indicating a deep connection. (The spirit forms of the Druids have the same shape, but we already know they were worshippers of nature/Melandru from the beginning, and they probably adopt the form by choice when they choose to be visible.) That the variants are found in nearly all areas of the Tyrian continent is no surprise, given that the original tribe has had centuries to multiply and spread out. But the Crystal Desert and the ocean may be impassable barriers for plant beings of their type, explaining why none are found in Elona or Cantha.

draxynnic · Aug 30, 2008, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Regarding the jungle guardians: From memory, the druids do take control and get them to stop attacking once you've summoned the Elder Druid. Maybe only the elder druid can control them, or it could be a test of some kind.